Curse

TadaceAce · Sep 21, 2005, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Ether feast->Archane Echo->Energy drain->Energy drain->Energy tap->(mantra of signets) Signet of weariness->Signet of weariness->Energy burn->Ether feast.

106 energy drained. 20s elapsed with no fast casting. I do suspect that a debilitating shot ranger does it better in the same timeframe though.

THats well 2+2+1+1+3+0+2+2+2+2, well thats only, 17 seconds.... thats not exactly 1 heal spell...\

Total Energy Drain = 5 + 42 + 14 + 20 + 10 + 5 = 96 btw

TadaceAce · Sep 21, 2005, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken

1. I'd like to know a monk with 100 energy; they'd be my best friend.
2. Your "best healing builds" list is utter crap. You can't properly compare 2 or more things unless variables are kept even somewhat constant. Not to mention, energy management > your silly desire for armor of earth.

3. No monk under the sun runs a build that doesn't have energy management. You seem to keep giving your elementalist the nice boost of ether renewal, but you don't want to give the monk OoB or ED? (ED being the prefered choice since hex/enchant/other EM skills run on that line.)
4. I'd love having more people run E/Mo healers. Now, not only do I outheal, but I have an unlimited energy engine to leech from.

I'll write your ignorance (I'll assume it's genuine ignorance about monks) off as you're the person with the bullshit formula. >.>

ok go ahead take out armor of earth and put in energy management, better put another monk on your team cause your not gonna outheal even one good damage build.

and I have no clue what your talking about the "bullshit formula"

and read the post the 100 energy is with I quote "12+4 Storage and a 10+5 staff" know any monks with energy storage?

TadaceAce · Sep 21, 2005, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chance Folly

*sighs in annoyance*
Uhm... I'm not going to type out a long, elaborate post, but... For everyone screaming "omg monks don't have enuff energy!!!1!one!", you really need to take a look outside of your narrow-minded idea of a healer. For example, my Healer is a Mo/N. I use Divine Boon to trigger staggering heals, and I use Offering of Blood to regenerate energy. Between Blood Rituals cast by Necromancers, and Offering of Blood, I almost never run out of energy, while doing 150-300 health heals. Omgomgomgwtflolbbq. *sighs again, and strolls out of the topic*

omg omgs offering of blood, its energy drain without... the energy drain...

glockjs · Sep 22, 2005, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadaceAce

omg omgs offering of blood, its energy drain without... the energy drain...

i guess how many times you can use it in a 5 min period doesnt factor in...does it?

on another note. somebody that would just put 16 in heals and 13 in divine makes me wonder if they have ever truly played a monk......

aB- · Sep 22, 2005, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Your mistake is you neglect any efficient means of energy management when you talk about the monk. Your E/Mo is using both classes to maximum efficiency, when the monk is only using one class. Add in some energy management with the monk like energy drain or offering of blood and the monk has the clear advantage.

Iraqalypse Now · Sep 22, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

I guess the OP hasn't used many divine boon monk/mesmer builds... its a combination of efficient energy managment combined with highly efficient heals... a 17 DF boon gives you 70 health per monk spell cast on ally, then a reversal of fortune cancels out one to two attacks on the ally. Mend ailment gets rather silly against condition stacking builds, and is decent enough against the random bleeding + deep wound or deep wound + cripple from axe/sword warriors, and is fast enough to remove weakness from an other ally against a hammer warrior with devastating hammer --> hammer bash. 16 divine favor with a +1 DF %20 off hand switch (not standard), 10 inspiration, 9 prot, dump points into domination. Divine boon, reversal of fortune, mend ailment, inspired hex, hex breaker (or mantra of resolve if rangers are a bitch), drain enchantment, energy drain, and guardian/signet of devotion. If you bring two of them, just about the right amount of healing to keep your team up a lot with little additional disruption, and also brings a good amount of energy/enchantment denial.

And whhhhhyyyy are you not running hea.ling seed? With enough seeds, it takes very little work to keep allies up..

Tyroie · Sep 22, 2005, 01:22 AM // 01:22

I actually did some calculator-ing a couple days ago to compare an elementalist/monk healer to a monk primary healer. The very first character I made back in the beta was an e/mo healer, and he's still my primary character. Here's the text file:

E/mo (assuming +20% enchantments, 12 healing and ether prodigy = 8 energy regen)
151 Heal Other for 10 energy
150 Heal Area, multiplied by (number of hurt, adjacent team-mates) minus (150 times the number of hurt, adjacent enemies) for 10 energy
192 Healing Breeze for 10 energy
67 Heal Party, multiplied by (number of hurt team-mates) for 15 energy
51, 68, 85, 102, 119, 136, 153 Dwayna's Kiss, depending on number of enchantments and hexes on ally, for 5 energy
---
Remember that Ether Prodigy is, in a way, the same thing as halving ALL energy costs, and halving enemy energy-drain skills. I love getting the whole "How much energy do you have, anyway?!" comment from mesmers or rangers who don't understand Ether Prodigy.

Mo (assuming +20% enchantments, 16 healing and 15 divine = 4 energy regen)
118 Orison of Healing for 5 energy
188 Orison of Healing for 7 energy and -1 energy regen when used with Divine Boon
234 Heal Other for 10 energy
190 Heal Area, multiplied by (number of hurt, adjacent team-mates) minus (190 times the number of hurt, adjacent enemies) for 10 energy
261 Healing Breeze for 10 energy
315 Healing Breeze for 10 energy and -1 energy regen when used with Blessed Aura
84 Heal Party, multiplied by (number of hurt team-mates) for 15 energy
152 Healing Touch for 5 energy
222 Healing Touch for 7 energy and -1 energy regen when used with Divine Boon
108, 129, 150, 171, 192, 213 or 234 Dwayna's Kiss, depending on number of enchantments and hexes on ally, for 5 energy
178, 199, 220, 241, 262, 283 or 304 Dwayna's Kiss, depending on number of enchantments and hexes on ally, for 7 energy and -1 energy regen when used with Divine Boon
129 or 234 Word of Healing [Elite], depending on if your target's health is below 50% - 45 or not, for 5 energy
199 or 304 Word of Healing [Elite], depending on if your target's health is below 50% - 45 or not, for 7 energy and -1 energy regen
---
Healing Touch matches the E/mo's Heal Other in energy effeciency, Dwayna's Kiss can match and exceed it given 3 or more enchantments / hexes on your target, and Word of Healing exceeds it by about +25% compared to Healing Breeze, +50% compared to Heal Other, assuming you cast it when your target's health is below 50% minus 45. Everything else is between 60-80% as effecient.
The monk primary does indeed exceed the E/mo in effeciency if the only spells he casts are those and you use two superior runes, otherwise possibly not. (Lacking a divine superior makes your Healing Touch much worse, and lacking a healing superior makes your Word of Healing much worse) This doesn't count any energy recoveries the monk's secondary class might have though, which could change things. In most cases, however, those energy regens can be much less consistant and reliable than ether prodigy.

The e/mo can, however, totally blow away Word of Healing with good use of Heal Party and Heal Area. The Heal Area would have to heal 2 people minimum, and the Heal Party 5 or 6 minimum. All in all, I'd say the e/mo is more energy effecient, especially if you want to use other skills at all, like hex removals, condition removals, armor spells, etc.
The monk primary rules more in the area of purely countering spike damage, though. If you compare his Word of Healing to the e/mo's Heal Other, it's about 10% more health over time. If you compare their Heal Others, the monk primary gets about 50% more over time. (Edit: The fact that the monk primary has more kinds of heals to carry is really what makes him better at anti-spike, I think. The e/mo is pretty much limited to those I listed for him above.)

In my opinion, it would be wisest to have both an e/mo and a mo primary for healers. Let the mo handle spiking and people with low health. The e/mo would handle healing breezes, people with high-health, the area-effect heals and condition removals. This is, of course, not the only viable way - I've learned not to think that way about this game.

But that's my input on this subject.

ElderAtronach · Sep 22, 2005, 02:14 AM // 02:14

I prefer to have E/Mos go protection if they wanted to do monking. A lot of the prot spells are expensive, while most don't need a full 16 prot to be effective. Look at aegis, prot spirit, mark of protection, convert hexes. Putting all those spells on the bar is energy intensive, and not very feasible with a monk primary due to lack of large energy pool.

The only downside I see of going E/Mo is that you need to either rely on Ether Renewal/Prodigy or lesser glyph for energy management if you want to use a monk elite. It's not as flexible as a primary monk in that regard.

Also its interesting to note that primary monks have better enchant-less self-healing and preservation in the form of high DF healing touch, and boon + contemplation of purity. Speaking of boon, running high DF and boon will outstrip E/Mo in efficiency with some from of energy management. In an energy denial environment, primary monks will outlast E/Mos if their Ether Renewal gets removed at all, due to bonuses from divine favor.

Another thing to factor in is the primary monk's access to +10 AL vs physical on their armor set, which is something elementalists do not get. In a warrior and ranger heavy environment, it can make a lot of difference in survivability. Going full tattoos on a primary monk is a BAD idea, but I see a ton of monks doing this. Apparently the usefulness of +armor vs +max energy is lost on them...

TadaceAce · Sep 22, 2005, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Tyroi your big post is also with 15 divine... c'mon, nobody is gonna equip 2 sup runes in the right mind... thats 380 life with a sup vigor... healing draws aggro, aggro against 380 life against guys hitting for 100 is a dead monk... what good is a dead monk..

Oh and divine boon + word = bad idea, I've tested it before, the divine favor + boon heal are factored in before the <50% check so basically they have to be down to like 20% life.

TadaceAce · Sep 22, 2005, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by aB-

Your mistake is you neglect any efficient means of energy management when you talk about the monk. Your E/Mo is using both classes to maximum efficiency, when the monk is only using one class. Add in some energy management with the monk like energy drain or offering of blood and the monk has the clear advantage.

look at the pve monk build I provided, they don't come with any more energy management then that...

Phades · Sep 22, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadaceAce

THats well 2+2+1+1+3+0+2+2+2+2, well thats only, 17 seconds.... thats not exactly 1 heal spell...\

Total Energy Drain = 5 + 42 + 14 + 20 + 10 + 5 = 96 btw

No, but you arent adding after casts in there. Also, its not about stopping a heal spell, its about preventing more. Next set of spells happens within 5s, but you asked anyway. Your ele build isnt anything special, even for random arenas.

KamikazeChicken · Sep 22, 2005, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadaceAce

look at the pve monk build I provided, they don't come with any more energy management then that...

Energy Tap, on a monk, is laughable. No monk can afford to stand around for 3 seconds casting a spell. >.> Channeling would be much more effective with a monk. You obviously lack the proper knowledge of energy management (I'll assume you've never used it since you show absolutely no understanding on the matter.), and I'd guess you'd never played a monk.

I guess it's always possible you were flamed/laughed at as a monk, so you turned to E/Mo healing to blame the laughter/flames on others' closed-minded views.

I've seriously just been waiting for Kuntz, Weezer, or someone to come in and wipe this thread up. >.> I know it will be quite entertaining when it happens.

AtomicMew · Sep 22, 2005, 03:36 AM // 03:36

N/Mo is far superior in PvE. In terms of energy management, assuming something dies every 10 seconds (which is an underestimate), soul reaping 16 is more than twice as effective as OoB. And since a N/Mo has a free elite, taking WoH brings heal per energy efficiency up to primary monk level. So overall, a N/Mo will be twice as efficient in healing in PvE.

IxChel · Sep 22, 2005, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

Another thing to factor in is the primary monk's access to +10 AL vs physical on their armor set, which is something elementalists do not get. In a warrior and ranger heavy environment, it can make a lot of difference in survivability. Going full tattoos on a primary monk is a BAD idea, but I see a ton of monks doing this. Apparently the usefulness of +armor vs +max energy is lost on them...

In PvP you are hands-down correct. Certainly the Ascetic Design set gives
you 6 energy (for the leggins and chest, the ones that matter). However,
once you've used that 6en, you're unlikely to ever get close to your max
energy. Energy Drain/Offering of Blood both give 18 energy at 12 in
their respective attributes, for a net gain of 13 energy. You'd have to
be over 17 energy when casting these spells for any of the 6 energy
given by the Ascetic set to be refilled -- and this is unlikely in a highly
competitive match. Furthermore, in PvP, you're most likely target #1,
so any damage reduction you have the better. The only debate here
is if the Wander's/Sacred's set is better than Censors -- a great deal of
PvP damage is elemental damage (spike and smiting builds).

However, in PvE, I have to disagree with you. Most of the time you
are targeted very last; and you almost always have enough time
between each mob to recover that 6en to be at full mana. In this
kill-quickly-and-move-on style, that extra 6en is an extra WoH. So,
for PvE, I'd stick with tattoos.

Tyroie · Sep 22, 2005, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Oh, I know they wouldn't use two superiors. I know I wouldn't. I guess I just preferred to assume the absolute maximum that a monk could do for sake of comparing.

And yeah, Elder, I'd -never- use Ether Renewal. I mean it's got a lot of potential and can rock, but... Enchantment strips, anything that can keep you from casting or allowing one's energy to get too low (enemy energy drains!!!) totally screw you over. Ether Prodigy is much much harder to stop. Even if it's stripped, it's recast is short. I was soooo happy when I finally got to switch from Renewal to Prodigy, heh.

The main thing that destroys Prodigy's energy regen is if something manages to increase the spell's recharge time, which is very, very uncommon. I will agree that the monk isn't reliant on an energy recovery quite the same way the e/mo is, but I invite you to try Ether Prodigy in PVP and see how hard it is for enemies to stop that regen.

Yeah, monk primaries have a loooot more options than secondaries, beyond just elites. Things like Orison of Healing aren't even worth looking at for a monk secondary.

I know monk primaries can and do rock. Heck, if you have a necro who can keep his energy regens on his team's monks, I'm not even gonna try to compete with that as an e/mo.

Alcaza Bedabra · Sep 22, 2005, 04:29 AM // 04:29

*clap* *clap* *clap*

16 Divine Favor plus Healing Touch... ever tried that? Healing Touch is my best self-heal. Try it without DV and it's just Orison with a longer cooldown.

Protection monks cast things like Aegis, that effect the whole party, and subsequently heal everyone for a DV boost.

Heal Party becomes an actually considerable option, because DV gives everyone, within an enormous range, both an orison-like boost plus the DV modifier. Heal 4 people with 3 Orisons in a string, or heal them with Heal Party and cast your Orison on the people that are still low on health?

Furthermore, Monks are not plain helpless about their mana. A smart monk using full tats (Yes, that's right, full tats) can have an easy 52 mana with an Insightful staff. I'd rather have that than an extra 6 armor (10% of 60 = 6) against Physical and a pitiful 40 or so mana from Censor's. 12 more mana is two orisons, and in the time it took you to cast those, mana for a Healing Breeze. 6 armor? Pshaw.

I've talked to Elementalists that tried healing builds... what about the fact that they cannot use Monk runes? No divine favor + no Monk runes means that, despite their mana storage, fast casting, et cetera, they're still not healing for as much as a Monk is, using their entire mana bar.

A Monk primary is just plain built for healing and protecting. He's got a few supercool Smiting skills to make him feel like an Elementalist, meanwhile ^_^

Alcaza Bedabra · Sep 22, 2005, 04:33 AM // 04:33

It's a bad idea to scoff at a ridiculous-looking build, for any reason. Some of those builds were put together by people that had insight that the casual, ignorant observer didn't have, and a build can come back and bite you in the ass for ignoring it.

P.S. I still think that R/W's are just Rangers that want to apply poision with an axe.

OneArmedScissor · Sep 22, 2005, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Healing Breeze FTW

IxChel · Sep 22, 2005, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcaza Bedabra

Heal Party becomes an actually considerable option, because DV gives everyone, within an enormous range, both an orison-like boost plus the DV modifier.

For the record, Heal Party does _not_ give the +51 (16 Divine Favor)
bonus to everyone in the party. Neither does Aegis. I think only the
healer gets the DF bonus since he/she is the target of the spell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcaza Bedabra

Furthermore, Monks are not plain helpless about their mana. A smart monk using full tats (Yes, that's right, full tats) can have an easy 52 mana with an Insightful staff.

In PvE, having that extra 25 energy is very nice. However, in PvP, I'd
rather have 26 mana and +10 armour from a staff and +10 armour
against physical. After the first 10-15 seconds of the match your
additional 25 energy won't mean a thing.

Alcaza Bedabra · Sep 22, 2005, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Oh.

Gee, I ought to check my facts first, eh?

Healing Touch is still useless without DF, though.